Request: Sources as PSD Instead of Proprietary Fireworks PNG
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- Christopher A Williams
- Jr. Rocketeer
- Posts: 31
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I have a request: Can we please start receiving the source files for templates in .PSD format instead of the proprietary .PNG format created by Fireworks? Yes, the Fireworks .PNG format is a proprietary version of .PNG...!
Doing this will allow us to not have to use Fireworks to edit the source files. The reason why we know the Fireworks version of .PNG is not really a true .PNG format is that native .PNG doesn't support layers!
Based on info I have found online, what Fireworks does is to add proprietary extensions/information into the .PNG file that allow it to be seamlessly imported back into Fireworks at the time the file is opened to get the original layer information.
I run Linux and, while I could probably run Fireworks on a Windows VM, that's impressively expensive as a proposition (A copy of Windows and a copy of Fireworks) just to edit these source files. ...and no, a 30-day trial isn't going to cut it either. GIMP would be able to handle editing these with no issues if they were in .PSD format instead...
Thanks.
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- Max Miecchi
- Elite Rocketeer
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- MediaWorks
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See the thread: "Why use Fireworks over Photoshop?"
http://www.rockettheme.com/forum/index.php?f=23&t=64822&p=342885&hilit=fireworks+vs.+photoshop&rb_v=viewtopic#p342885 -
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- Christopher A Williams
- Jr. Rocketeer
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I read the referring thread...
...Umm this is not a discussion of the merits of Fireworks vs. Photoshop.
This is a request for you to supply your source files in a format that does not compel your paying customers to spend large sums of money buy the product and run the OS that you may personally prefer to use, namely Fireworks and Windows. I find that incredibly ironic since you are providing templates for an OpenSource platform running on LAMP technology...
I'm not a Fireworks hater, nor am I a Photoshop "fanboy". I used to use Fireworks a long time ago in the old Macromedia days, and I might even consider getting a copy to run in a Windows VM at some point in the future. But that should be my choice. What I'm asking is that you supply your source image formats such that people who choose to use something other than Fireworks can also do what they need to manipulate them. Fireworks can also export to a format that supports layers such that other tools can import it.
I really don't think that's too much to ask.
I've been a template club subscriber for 2 years now and am now wondering if I shouldn't move on to other template providers who might not have this... issue.
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- Max Miecchi
- Elite Rocketeer
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- MediaWorks
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Of course it is. It's a topic that has been widely discussed since at least 2 years:
http://www.rockettheme.com/forum/index.php?f=16&t=55618&p=332891&hilit=+fireworks+photoshop&rb_v=viewtopic#p332891
http://www.rockettheme.com/forum/index.php?f=107&t=50233&p=262905&hilit=+fireworks+photoshop&rb_v=viewtopic#p262905
http://www.rockettheme.com/forum/index.php?f=23&t=11103&p=59305&hilit=+fireworks+photoshop&rb_v=viewtopic#p59305
and more... -
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- Christopher A Williams
- Jr. Rocketeer
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After reading the referenced threads, No, actually, it isn't too much to ask.
You are letting a zealous allegiance towards one proprietary product cloud your judgment. In the process, you are assuming that I'm advocating that you use a product that you don't prefer. That's simply not the case.
Fact: Fireworks, as good as it is at Web based graphics, does not save PNG format files using the standard for PNG files. Period.
That makes it more difficult, and sometimes impossible, to manipulate the source files as provided, and does so unnecessarily. You appear to know that as well as anyone, which is what makes this so surprisingly shocking to me.
If you can't or won't provide your sources in a way that can be manipulated properly by the people paying good money to use them with their choice of tools, you will eventually cost yourselves business.
If you must provide Fireworks based PNG files as sources, at least provide then in such as way that other programs could be still used to assemble the final images such that the spirit of the look is fully preserved. For example, provide the text layers as a separate file that can be added as a layer. You already provide the font files - this shouldn't be too hard to do. Alternately, provide the base background slices without the text and let people add their own text using the supplied fonts, instead of having to use Fireworks specifically to change what's there. Provide instructions on how to change the font effects as desired just as you do for other things, or build this into the font itself. Then you get to keep working in your preferred Fireworks world - and even preach its merits to the heights if you like - and others who don't have it, either by choice or by circumstance, can still get done what they need to do.
I wound up - after a little exploring - being able to partially re-create what I needed using GIMP by using the font files and layering them on a separate background slice I created from scratch. It's not 100% what I was hoping for, but it passes the "good enough" test for the moment.
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- Max Miecchi
- Elite Rocketeer
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- MediaWorks
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You're answering my posts like if I had some influence in RT choices.
Sorry, I'm just a RT (satisfied) customer, and just heard often this (or similar) request.
I own Adobe Master Collection, and use both softwares with great satisfaction. Fireworks for web graphics, Photoshop for a lot of other needs.
I was trying in these years to use templates from other producers too, providing sources in PSD, and I'm 100% happy with RT PNG sources choice. - Last Edit: 14 years 10 months ago by Max Miecchi.
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- Andy Miller
- Preeminent Rocketeer
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- Web Kahuna
- Just for the record PSD is also a proprietary format. it stands for "Photoshop Document". The only thing that comes close to an independent standard for web graphics is SVG, but unfortunately this is not well supported at this time. PSD has just become so popular and quite well supported (although far from 100% in anything but photoshop) is entirely due to photoshop's popularity. Like we've stated in many previous threads, we feel Fireworks is a better tool than Photoshop for web development, and have been fully committed to it since that choice was made. Fireworks is much cheaper than Photoshop, it's available on the same platforms (Windows and Mac). Linux is a great OS, perfect for servers, but it's really not that practical as a platform for web design. I know this because i've been using linux for nearly 15 years, and have often used it as my primary desktop when I was doing programming, however on the graphics side, it's just not a great option because Adobe's suite is not native on it. That goes for Photoshop, Fireworks, Illustrator, etc. Of course there are plenty of opensource options for linux, but none of them stack up to either Photoshop or Fireworks in features or compatibility. Anyway, this whole debate is about as futile as the Windows vs Mac one. Everyone has their opinions and most often those cannot be swayed, I'm just trying to give you some rationale for why we are using fireworks and it's native format PNG implementation.
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- Christopher A Williams
- Jr. Rocketeer
- Posts: 31
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...And once again, the point is missed.
I know that PSD is also proprietary and am somewhat familiar with SVG. PSD is just highly popular and can be considered a de-facto standard because of it. By contrast, the Fireworks version of PNG actually doesn't really even follow the PNG standard though - which is a different situation. But none of that is really the issue at hand though.
Neither is Windows vs. Linux vs. Mac vs. <insert your other favorite OS here>.
This isn't about which OS or application is better. This is about making reasonable choices in how you provide your sources so that people don't unnecessarily have to duplicate your environment to achieve a certain desired effect.
I have no issue with your rationale or commitment to the Fireworks version of PNG per se. I have no issue with your promoting Fireworks as the greatest thing since graphics were invented if you feel that way. I have no issue with you recommending Fireworks - highly. The issue is that, because of how you have made the source images available, the images as provided can really only be manipulated in Fireworks. The net result is you essentially are forcing me to make the same commitment you freely have made for yourselves. I shouldn't have to.
The suitability of Linux (as you put it), despite your using it for 15 years, is also nothing more than your opinion as well. In my job as a Virtual Infrastructure Architect (VMware, Xen, KVM, Hyper-V, etc.), I use many different operating systems myself, including Linux - which I also have used for more than 15 years. I'm an expert in IT infrastructure and virtualization, and purposely did not become an expert in Web design. But, isn't the point of your templates to make this as easy as possible for people who might not be as serious or committed to Web graphics design as you? If it isn't, why are we paying for this service?
I believe I have given you reasonable alternatives which would allow you to maintain your own commitment to Fireworks without having to force the same on others. Are you so committed that you feel you must make everyone else just as committed as you?
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- Andy Miller
- Preeminent Rocketeer
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- Web Kahuna
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The fundamental problem here is not the format of the files. Each product has it's own 'native' format that guarantees files saved in that format will look exactly the same on every platform. There is no one format that works for all products, only the product's own native format. Fireworks can open PSD's (not 100% accurately), and it can also save as PSD, although again, not 100% accurately. In fact from our experience the results are pretty bad. Photoshop on the other hand can't open Fireworks PNGs at all (just thinks they are flat), and can't export fireworks PNGs either. Every app i've ever come across have provided similar experiences. You basically have to pick the tool that works the best, and then your stuck with it's native format. If we did our designs in Photoshop, we'de be using PSD, and fireworks users would be out of luck. If we did our designs in the GIMP, our native format would be XCF or whatever. The point is there's no way we can provide 100% compatible PSDs unless we used Photoshop. We have in the past attempted to offer PSD versions as well as PNGs, but it required us to recreate the entire template from scratch in Photoshop using it's own native layers, objects, gradients etc. The problem is that this resulted in designs that were subtly pixel different, and any modifications you made caused incompatibilities in the way things lined up. Not to mention this was a HUGE amount of work.
As we've clearly stated in the other threads, as well as here, we feel Photoshop is not the best tool for what we do. In an effort to make things as simple as possible for people that are not design professionals, we offer lots of color variations, we also offer logo 'blanks', so that getting a fairly custom design doesn't require fireworks at all. Also you can of course manipulate the exported web pngs with any editor by changing hue/saturation/etc. So again, simple color modifications can be accomplished using this technique. Anything further than that, your going to need Fireworks.
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- John Hodgkinson
- Hero Rocketeer
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- Retired, but build and run websites for organisations of school leaders and others - e.g. http://www.icponline.org, http://www.aspa.asn.au, http://www.appa.asn.au
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At the risk of prolonging the discussion, I'm asking the following question in a genuine attempt to learn more about RT. I'm not a graphics expert, so please excuse the question if it is totally crazy.
As we are using an open source software package (Joomla) as our website system, is there a reason that we don't use an open source graphics software package (as I understand that GIMP is)?
PS I have Fireworks.
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