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Regarding Gantry 5: All members feel free to pounce in this.

  • Regarding Gantry 5: All members feel free to pounce in this.

    Posted 7 years 5 months ago
    • Okay, this is a (year in the making of) rant so I'll try to be lighthearted since I love RT. Except for one "naughty" word, caps are for emphasis, NOT yelling. And this is loOoOoOooooong, so... well... get over it. It took a year to get here, okay!! :O

      I mean what I say with all humility and grace and please keep in mind I have been one of your most avid RAH-RAH squads for years... MANY years. Though I don't have letters at the end of my name and I am self taught over 20+ years of web development and geek speak, I believe I am qualified enough on your products, procedures and long term use to make the following statements:

      First and foremost, the quality of help in forums is failing. I have seen a particular statement in various forms and flavors in far more posts than I care to mention over an embarrassingly long period of time now. I have to admit, when I saw it again today, it just POPPED MY CORK!
      we have chosen not to undertake (INSERT BLANK FEATURE HERE) in favor of targeting our limited development resources at Gantry 5, Templates and GRAV."

      After a long and protracted period of well considered evaluations, here's my list of complaints for Gantry 5:

      PRODUCT DISCONTINUATIONS:

      You didn't warn long standing (PAID) members templates for G4 have all but been discontinued except for occasional updates (unless you want to chance it that the one you use will be around a while).

      You didn't warn us that extensions would be phased out for Gantry 5. Now that's a BIGGIE for most of us.

      To my knowledge, you have not warned your members how a flat file system varies from the core Joomla system and how if affects/effects your site or whether certain items are searchable. That's a very important thing to know and, upon digging into this, I learned some rather disturbing things about SEO in relation to Gantry 5. Don't you think we should be informed of this?

      You also didn't tell us just how RAW this system was or that you were using us as your guinea pigs. Whether intentional or not, it happened and it just doesn't compute on any rational scale for any template club! Furthermore, your guinea pigs have been restless and undernourished for some time now and it's time you acknowledge there are problems and find solutions which are favorable to said guinea pigs before they find a way out of that pen and flee the farm Mr. GreenJeans!

      With the current RT Matrix, mix and match themes are now extinct due to G5's varied layouts and limitations!

      With or without an RT Template, the extensions were invaluable to many.

      PARTICLES: NOT useable for Gantry 4 and NOT uniform across themes:

      The current particle system seriously limits our display choices on a per template basis! I find a template I love and I'm stuck with the particles for that template only. Maybe I "WANT" particles from another template. In the past, this was not an issue because we could upload individual extensions and they worked across ALL templates. G4 users don't get the goodies some of the particles offer so they are forced to upgrade to Gantry 5. WHY oh WHY did you do this?

      Now I must rewrite code and/or manipulate files if the theme I pick doesn't have the particle. This is, in short, INSANITY.

      Many of us, like ME {{{HELLOooooo, hands waving wildly}}} work with more than one theme and MANY sites. We NEED the ability to pick and choose particles without the headaches, grief and code/file manipulations because they change with each theme!

      Frankly, I am sick and tired of having to CODE CODE CODE, relocate and/or create new core files to get the PARTICULAR particle I need for a template.

      ALL extensions, particles, whatEVER you want to call them, should work for ALL templates without special coding skills required. It was YOUR niche model and an industry standard that YOU GUYS set and now are veering away from. What in HECK are you thinking? It's nuts!

      As it stands now, we need inordinate amounts of time (far beyond the scope of the average user) to actually GET the particular particle we want in the theme we want to use it with! You have continually ignored this one statement, which is clear and concise, and have not yet addressed what you intend to do about it. From what I know and what I "SEE" here in the forums, it's the biggest BEEF we all have and we get no feedback from you. Silence is NOT an answer.

      And then, there's the insult of "limited resources" to handle all this. I will remind you that you made a unilateral decision without any input from your members to "limit your resources and reassign them to other projects" but neglected to warn your paying customers this was going to happen.

      I am glad you have something that will benefit the Joomla community, but that's not the "community" I signed up and PAID FOR here. Additionally, just about every client I had over the last few years is now a member here and it's downright embarrassing to ME when I see one of their posts met with that rude statement when I have RAVED over your support for years.

      It's terribly unprofessional to tell someone you don't have the resources to help them or continue to develop the product they PURCHASED because you are busy with OTHER PROJECTS. REALLY!?!?!?!

      Gantry 5 is not well documented enough for the MASSES. It's poorly constructed, confusing and often, does not address your need. When you look for help here or elsewhere, you get redirected to a not so helpful documentation site.

      This baby and her particles should be on a BACK BURNER until properly gestated for prime time. To date, I still say after over a year and a similar rant that this monster has upset the balance of Quality, Function and the Ease of Use we grew accustomed to before you forced it on us. (YeS, I bluntly said FoRcEd it.)

      Finally, for those of you who are "sensitive" to certain terminology, please put on your eye/ear condoms because I am ACTUALLY going to type a curse word here! Duplicating layouts when switching from one Gantry 5 theme to another is, quite simply...
      a BITCH!

      While "I" may know HOW to do all of it, the average user lasts about 20 minutes on it (IF that) before giving up. I won't tell you the nightmares I've had to clean up. And I can tell you from long, arduous and unpleasant conversations, most users don't like the added layer of education required to accomplish what they want. Frankly, I don't have the time to spend rewriting and relocating core files or trying to explain it to others when Gantry 4 saved me from all that. It was like "Calgon on Steriods" for us when it came to getting spiffed up and looking pretty.

      It's even more riDICulous when you stop and think you had a product that worked.

      LAYOUTS:

      Gantry 4 had over 80 positions in a logical format that accomodated pretty much everything you could want. No CODING required. Now, nada! We have to recreate layouts to match those that came before. Why in heaven's name did you change that?
      • The lack of continuity from theme to theme,
        the lack of a standard layout with standard naming conventions,
        the lack of particles from one theme to another, and
        all the coding skills now required to achieve quality results
      ...are far beyond the scope of what was once required to use your products. If you are a developer, multiply this exponentially and you've got a big time problem on your hands with your clients for which you are probably NOT getting paid. So again, Gantry 5 is inconvenient to use, to put it mildly.

      It takes a well seasoned designer/developer to attempt using RT now and I think it's time for your Think Tank to start thinking from the end user's perspective rather than a developer. It seems to me you've grown tired and complacent... downright LAZY... in continuing to provide that which we signed up for.

      Gantry 4 coupled with your extensions was and still can be the best product out there. As it stands, Gantry 5 is eating the dust of some of your competitors and I hope I won't have to begin leaning on them if this total disregard for the knowledge base of average users as a whole continues!

      *Possible* solution before posting any responses to this post (if you don't delete it... chuckle):

      Take an honest poll with your members and find out if they even LIKE Gantry 5 over Gantry 4? It's my humble opinion G5 is for hard core developers and not for the faint of heart or timid with code.

      I'll tell you there like I say here, put that "other baby" on the back burner and return your focus to the first one, Gantry 4 (FOUR... fOuR.... FoUr... NOT FIVE, FOUR! Rah..rah..sys..boom...bah FOUR!). In this instance, FOUR is better than five. It's a better baby and it don't squeal so much! If you want to develop another platform, go for it. But don't co-mingle us.

      If you read this far, thank you... I would say I feel better now, but I don't. I FINALLY had the time to redevelop my OWN site after some years. It's taken a LONG while and my last piece before production is my style. I'm not in the mood to change to another provider at the moment but I'm stumped on whether I really want to use RT on MY site. OMG! I just had a minor heart palpitation at the thought of leaving my home here!

      P.S. Bring me to Denver office for two weeks or PUH-LEEZE fix this stuff before I stroke out! ReALLY! I can't take it any more. Not joking. You makin' me like crazy Momma over child not using full potential. ;)
    • Ryan M Pierson's Avatar
    • Ryan M Pierson
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    Re: Regarding Gantry 5: All members feel free to pounce in this.

    Posted 7 years 5 months ago
    • Empowermom wrote:
      First and foremost, the quality of help in forums is failing. I have seen a particular statement in various forms and flavors in far more posts than I care to mention over an embarrassingly long period of time now. I have to admit, when I saw it again today, it just POPPED MY CORK!

      Our team is looking closely at this post, and it is being shared with our moderators. We do hear you, and strive to do the best job that we can. If you have particular examples where we didn't do a good enough job, please feel free to email them to us using the contact form. That goes directly to me and other members of the team.



      PRODUCT DISCONTINUATIONS:
      You didn't warn long standing (PAID) members templates for G4 have all but been discontinued except for occasional updates (unless you want to chance it that the one you use will be around a while).

      This has been our ongoing method since Gantry was first introduced. When we created the original Gantry we stopped making non-Gantry templates. We stopped making new templates with previous versions of Gantry the moment Gantry 4 was introduced. Now, with Gantry 5, we focused on building great new templates with a great new framework.

      Gantry 4 didn't go away, we just aren't making new templates on a framework that is built on an older set of technologies. If we were to release Gantry 4 and Gantry 5 versions of each new template, development would take twice as long as it does now and the percentage of people using Gantry 4 wouldn't justify that time.

      We can either make 5-6 templates per year or 11-13.
      You didn't warn us that extensions would be phased out for Gantry 5. Now that's a BIGGIE for most of us.

      As far as I know we are still actively supporting extensions. Our Gantry 5 themes continue to work with existing extensions. Where we did phase things out as far as Gantry 5 in particular is concerned is RokNavMenu which was integrated into Gantry 5 and expanded on considerably.
      To my knowledge, you have not warned your members how a flat file system varies from the core Joomla system and how if affects/effects your site or whether certain items are searchable. That's a very important thing to know and, upon digging into this, I learned some rather disturbing things about SEO in relation to Gantry 5. Don't you think we should be informed of this?

      Also, please let us know what SEO things you've heard. Because we are actively using flat-file systems on the Gantry website, exclusively. Our website here, RocketTheme, has flat-file documentation and has used it for nearly three years.

      As far as SEO is concerned, the flat-file elements of Gantry 5 should not appear on the front end. Content is rendered just as it would if you were using a database. I could be totally wrong, and hope you can shed light on the issues you've found. So far we hear "bad things" without actual examples we can work from.
      You also didn't tell us just how RAW this system was or that you were using us as your guinea pigs. Whether intentional or not, it happened and it just doesn't compute on any rational scale for any template club!

      On the contrary, we've been using flat-file systems internally for years. We started with our documentation. This proof of concept enabled us to move forward in creating Grav, which is currently nominated in three categories in the CMS awards and went head-to-head with Joomla last year.

      It wasn't until we deployed these techniques on our own sites and tested them thoroughally that we took them to alpha and then beta with Gantry 5. Gantry 5 was in beta for a considerably long time, and we are not the only template company using it.
      With the current RT Matrix, mix and match themes are now extinct due to G5's varied layouts and limitations!

      We hear you and are working on ways to improve your experience.
      With or without an RT Template, the extensions were invaluable to many.

      Extensions aren't going anywhere. We still support them and you can still use them for RocketTheme templates and themes, or any other template or theme. They're universal.
      PARTICLES: NOT useable for Gantry 4 and NOT uniform across themes

      Right! Because Gantry 4 does not support the massive amounts of additional code required to add it AND maintain backwards compatibility. Particles are a Gantry 5 thing made possible because of Gantry 5's integrated support for Twig templating and YAML configuration.

      If we added it to Gantry 4, Gantry 4 would become a bogged-down monster. It was already getting some critique because it had been carrying over so much backward compatibility weight as it was.
      The current particle system seriously limits our display choices on a per template basis! I find a template I love and I'm stuck with the particles for that template only.

      We are working on this. 100% agree. We are working on this and will have something to share on this soon. We have to have something to show you.
      And then, there's the insult of "limited resources" to handle all this. I will remind you that you made a unilateral decision without any input from your members to "limit your resources and reassign them to other projects" but neglected to warn your paying customers this was going to happen.

      I'm going to disagree with you whole-heartedly there. We talked about Gantry 5 for over a year before we released the first alpha for it. We tested with the community, openly, on GitHub. We have fielded and acted on over 1,400 requests from the community. That's 1,400 times someone has submitted an idea and we acted on it. We continue to do so, every day.

      We started posting information about Gantry 5 on our blog in 2014. This was over a year before we released Callisto, the first Gantry 5 theme.
      Additionally, just about every client I had over the last few years is now a member here and it's downright embarrassing to ME when I see one of their posts met with that rude statement when I have RAVED over your support for years.

      That's unacceptable. Please email us on our contact form or mention me directly. You can tweet us, or email me at my first name at rockettheme.com and I will personally make sure that any matter of rudeness is addressed.

      We take any report of rudeness or apathy on the part of our team members very seriously.
      Gantry 5 is not well documented enough for the MASSES. It's poorly constructed, confusing and often, does not address your need. When you look for help here or elsewhere, you get redirected to a not so helpful documentation site.

      I write the documentation for Gantry 5 and RocketTheme's themes myself. I will be happy to address any problems you find and expand on any topic you feel isn't covered well enough. You can submit an issue on GitHub or tell our moderators here to pass it along to me and they will submit the ticket on your behalf.

      For what it's worth: I sincerely apologize if it doesn't meet your needs. We are working on it every day, and new things get added on a constant basis. Feedback is the lifeblood of good documentation. If you have specific feedback and ideas on what it needs to be better, we want to hear them.
      It's even more riDICulous when you stop and think you had a product that worked.

      It worked and continues to work. We did have a lot of long rant posts like yours about Gantry 4, begging us to build something new. They listed a ton of important features they wanted on the new framework. We listened and responded.

      Unfortunately, it is impossible to make everyone happy. But we are working to make things better every day, and will take your feedback to heart.

      It's Sunday night, and my in-laws are waiting for me to drive over to their house for dinner. I wanted to make sure I answered at least most of your questions before I did. Our team is reading this post and will probably add their own responses in the next couple days.

      I promise you we are listening and are working tirelessly to address this. We are a small company, and every member of our team is working overtime to make sure that improvement on Gantry 5 and our templates continues to happen.
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    • Ryan Matthew Pierson / Technical Writer / Buda, TX USA
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    Re: Regarding Gantry 5: All members feel free to pounce in this.

    Posted 7 years 5 months ago
    • First, thank you for taking the time to provide us with your detailed feedback. +10 for engaged users with opinions :)


      Product Discontinuation / Particles

      G4 Templates are still very supported. We still support and update templates released in 2009 which is unparalled by any other template provider that I'm aware of.

      Our Joomla Extensions are all still very supported. Even when we moved them all from paid to free a couple years back we've still continually improved and updated our extensions.

      Gantry 5 is CMS agnostic. Extensions are specific to Joomla. Particles are the future for Gantry and the more and more I dig into them the more and more I know they're my future too. I can walk into a client meeting and know that I can offer them 3 CMS choices without needing to have 3 different plans with 3 different sets of tools and features. Maybe the client is already comfortable with WordPress. Maybe the client needs robust on-the-go accessibility to their site... hosted 100% on Dropbox or any other simple Cloud Storage... or maybe you (I do) just hate databases... meet Grav :)

      Are Particles fully mature? No. We do need a centralized Particle repository with common/reusable Particles across all templates. Their implementation has gotten MUCH better since our first G5 template release. A centralized Particle repository and marketplace has always been discussed.

      Particles do/will work in any Template. But since they're released in specific Templates only (currently) they may be styled within that template only for that template. Functionally you can move them from template to template without issue. Again though, I agree we need it to be more centralized.

      Want to impress a client? Take an existing Particle, copy it's TWIG and YAML files to the /custom/particles/ folder and change the first couple lines of the YAML file to be "CLIENT NAME Custom Whatever Particle" -- rename some of the field titles to be specific to that client and what they're using the particle for. That's the type of thing that makes you look like a hero developer that can be done in under 10 minutes.

      G5 is open source. We're not the only ones making Particles and from a consumer point of view I think that's pretty exciting. In that, I would disagree that it's our "niche" model... it's open source and it's everyone's to play with, enhance, and improve. If you haven't been over to our GitHub I'd highly recommend it.

      From my own experience as a Mod on the boards I don't see us telling people we can't support something that's supposed to be supported because of resources. Whenever there's a bug or something is broken I see us generally responding quickly, engaging the Devs, and getting issues fixed. What I do see is members asking for customizations or custom development that is not supported. We always try and help with that stuff when we can, and you're right, we are much more busy around here with G5 development (MUCH bigger project than G4), Grav, and everything else buzzing around here that (I think) makes this such an interesting place to be. In that, I would agree that Mods have had less time to help with custom development.


      Layouts

      Layouts are SOOOOOO much better in G5. 80 positions is nice... Infinite is better though, no? Unlimited, unrestrcited creation of positions in a variety of containers and completely customizable per page. Personally, I stay away from the Module Position Particle but that's how you would mimic G4... in fact, all of our Template come with a "gantry 4" pre-configured Layout that you can load into any Outline.

      I personally put everything (I can) directly on the Layout though... which is in turn why I love Particles over Modules or Extensions.

      Got a Layout, or Settings, you've built, love, and want to export? Easy (and getting easier ). Couldn't do that with G4. You note this as one of your big concerns. Open new thread in the Gantry 5 forum and I'll help you with it.

      We do get lots of feedback. And believe me, when G5 first rolled out, there was lots of headaches and learning curves... but the evolution, user engagement, and overall adoption of G5 has been fantastic. G4 was never on GitHub. G5 is. Now everyone has full access to our code and devs from all over the world can (and have) contribute, suggest, provide feedback, write code, and engage with our devs in a VERY public place which holds everyone accountable and allows for better cultivation and evolution.

      The web is a fast moving place with newer, better code being written all the time. I have many G4 sites that I care very much about and I'm confident that they'll continue to run, and run well for many years to come. But G5 came along at the right time. Built from the ground up with modern (even bleeding edge in some respects) code that will far outlast the aging code in G4. It's faster, more robust, CMS agnostic, and it has way more bells, whistles, and just more downright potential when building any site you, or your clients, can dream of.
    • Last Edit: 7 years 5 months ago by Matt.
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    • SEARCH the forum first! These boards are rich in knowledge and vast in topics. This includes searching just the 'Solved' forums, using Google, and using ChatGPT :woohoo:
  • Re: Regarding Gantry 5: All members feel free to pounce in this.

    Posted 7 years 5 months ago
    • First, thank you for understanding my post was meant as feedback albeit a bit more "passionate" and it definitely covered more than I intended starting out. I'm a redhead and fire is built in. I try to stay mindful of my burn hazard yet some days it gets the better of me. If it means anything, you guys deal with me better than my husband of 32 years! LOL

      I agree in part and disagree in part with Matt and Ryan's responses. I acknowledge the distinct possibility I am either confused or have been misguided on some issues but it doesn't alter the facts of what I've seen and experienced during Gantry's growing pains.

      You guys ought to know I'm usually painstakingly specific in my posts (offering many cuts, pastes, links and references). From a purely professional standpoint, I believe this should be discussed in private and that's why I was vague. I don't want to single anyone out publicly and the goal is reSolution not reVolution.

      And yes, I follow the forums, Gantry Docs, GitHub and chat (daily) to keep abreast of what's going on. I read... ALOT ... so much so I feel like a voyeur around here! I've learned a great deal about design and programming at RT and I value that. If you don't have answers, I am (usually) pointed in the right direction where an answer awaits.

      When I say "I love RocketTheme", it's a validation of excellence as well as an emotion, not a cliche`. It does not mean there aren't problems. This one quote, on top of many like it, just popped my cork because I knew it is not representative of the spirit or intent of RT.... yet it's out there! I did not read it wrong and it's too clear and specific to misunderstand. I felt sorry for the member on the receiving end. I was concerned for the reputation of RT. There are also many members I've recruited around here who trusted my judgement and followed my lead over the years. Who do you think they call when they can't or don't get an answer... long after OUR contract expires? It's a trickle down effect and I don't like egg on my face (except during facials on Sunday), so yeah... I take it personally when I encounter statements like that.

      So I asked you to take a poll as a "pulse check" on how successful Gantry 5 is for those who don't have coding skills. Next, I said seasoned developers can and do lose empathy for the uninitiated sometimes. It's called impatience. Then I mentioned it may be advantageous to have a small, in-house sensitivity session away from public scrutiny to remind all that many members are new to all this and should be treated accordingly. Maybe I should have posted that and left it alone.

      None of us has all the answers. The only thing that makes us smart is knowing WHERE to find them. If they aren't here, you know you'll hear from me. All in all, I guess I'm thankful I haven't been kicked out yet!

      ;)
  • Re: Regarding Gantry 5: All members feel free to pounce in this.

    Posted 7 years 4 months ago
    • I don't really have an issue changing particles between templates but I could see clients having issues with it.

      The best thing about G4 for me was the ability to make a website without it being responsive. Then you had the option to "Turn it on" after convincing a client to take it and charge them more. Now with G5 you don't have a choice anymore. That's a BIG LOSS in my book. Some customers, especially the older no tech savvy ones, just want to be able to view the website in it's full version even on their phones.

      Otherwise I think the G5 framework is definitely going in the right direction. I think the current RT G5 templates should be more polished and a bit more care and attention put in for smaller things like editor buttons and font sizes as almost always you have to change them via media queries. ;)
    • Last Edit: 7 years 4 months ago by RedRiverBlack.

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